Curse

Str0b0 · Apr 14, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

Is there a way for a game company to copyright the entire contents of a game and therefore making it illegal for places like eBay to host the selling of in-game items.

As I understand copyright law all facets of a given piece of software are covered if you copyright the software itself. that means it is illegal for them to do what they do...that is it would be if they did it in the US or in countries where copyright law is actually enforced. As it is now though most of these places that you find farmers and the servers that these second party sites sell from either do not recognize the legitimacy of international copyright or they just do not enforce it.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 14, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

For what it's worth, I see sweatshops as the beginning of a capitalist system. Sure, the wages suck right now, but as more and more people take interest in what they see as easy money to be made, they'll have to fork out more of their own profits to keep themselves in the game.

Damn interesting article.

As much as I dislike it, makes me want to do it myself.

zoozoc · Apr 14, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Wow, all this arguments over something as trivial as buying online gold. Its not illegal, no one gets hurt because of it, it actually helps people get better jobs. There are a lot worse things in the world then this.

gunnery_sgt · Apr 14, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

You're right, there are a lot worse things, but it's still wrong. And you are defeating the purpose of the game through doing so. You lose the replay value of a game by buying ingame items for offline cash(is that the right term?). Achievements like FoW armor are meaningless if you can just buy the gold neccesary to buy the ecto and pay for the crafting of it, all without breaking a sweat. What's the point if you can get the best stuff by spending $20?

jackie · Apr 14, 2006, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Making a living from farming in an Online Game, now that really says how greedy, lazy & opportunists humans are.

About that part that the opportunists pay 4x money to the Chinese than China's own average, that ain't any excuse to cover their business idea.

Sometimes I'm really ashamed how spineless westerners are.

Ken Dei · Apr 14, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Don't worry, a lot of us Westerners are as ashamed of having so many of our people defend this crap.

The biggest laugh is when I hear someone say thse people are "better off"

How many here have played for 8+ hours straight, repeatedly. I have on various occasions.

When I'm done, the only feeling in my fingers is pain. I can't move my wrists for almost a day, because the ungodly pain in them is to much to warrent it. My eyes are so blood shoot I look like the living dead, and they're so sore I usually have to shut them to quell the symphony of hammers cracking my skull like an egg from the inside. Chances are I've been so diligent I haven't had much to eat or drink, so I'm all but starving.

And I'm not even a sweatshop worker. I only do such extreme things during the preview weekend. Imagine doing that day in, day out, for months, years at a time...then when the bad medical complications of such extreme gameplay set in, you can't go home and take an Aspirin...or afford good medical attention. You definitely can't take a break, you'll lose your "job," so you suffer...you screw up your body, and waste your life away in a worthless, dead end job, to line the pockets of people who don't give a ---- about you, so a bunch of people on the other side of the world can be callous, soul-less, moral-less retards who say everythings "Ok" this way because instead of buying a game they could afford to spend the time on and play legitimately, they would rather cheat their way to the top.

Oh yeah...these people are SOOOOO much better off....

If our government and our people could stop pretending the world consists of the next reality TV show, big truck, and what country we're about to needlessly declare war on, and actually freaking pressure these countries to reform their economies, and get these people REAL JOBS, then...THEN they would be better off...

If people would quit trying to justify bad things with "shades of grey" THEN these people would be better off...

No, not everything is Black and White....but there are things in this world that are inhierantly evil...no matter what lame excuses you come up with to justify it or pretend you aren't responsible.

So all you people "being punished because you have lives" you go ahead and buy your eBay gold...and you go on pretending you're doing a good thing...pretending that it's "OK" to buy sweatshopped gold because you are so immature that you can't handle the process of getting something done the right way, even though you KNEW when you bought the game it would take you longer because you have lives...

At least you have lives...which is probably more then what most sweatshop workers have...

XeNoGeArZ · Apr 14, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnery_sgt

Achievements like FoW armor are meaningless if you can just buy the gold neccesary to buy the ecto and pay for the crafting of it, all without breaking a sweat.

Achievements? Like you can get a "Certificate of FOW Armor of Outstanding Achievement"? How are you achieving this FOW armor? Mindless grinding for money. Takes a lot of skill doesn't it? This achievement...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

Sometimes I'm really ashamed how spineless westerners are.

Way to go to generalize Westerners. Humanity FTW! You couldn't even add one word.
"...spineless some Westerners..."
I suppose I could generalize all the people from Finland now, since you are from there, and like you to have one view of all Westerners - I suppose I can have the same view for all those from Finland? Way to go representing your native homeland!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

blah blah blah

Get off your soapbox. I would assume the people that buy gold via eBay don't care about defending their actions, and don't care what others like you think. They do what they want to do, and if that means violating the EULA, then they will, whether they know it or not (I'm sure every human-being reads every word of a "license agreement" for everything they install). Secondly, you don't know the work conditions over there. You are relating your lone, uncomfortable experience.

I don't ebay for gold and I don't care what others do either if they ebay for gold or not. It is an aspect of online gaming that exists regardless of whether you like it or not. Whine and cry all you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -CGW April 2006 Issue 261 pg. 64

Starr Long, right-hand man to Richard Garriott during the UO days and even today as work continues on developing TABULA RASA for NCSoft, thinks game design can be altered. "While NCSoft is officially opposed to such behavior - it is a violation of our terms of service-my personal opinion is that this is unavoidable and it should be accounted for in game design," he says. "For UO, we were proud when one of the castles sold on eBay for thousands of dollars!"

nugzta · Apr 14, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

One of the way to solve problem like this is to force people who determine to achieve special/rare items (eg. fow armor), earning it by themselves. By gaining points or factions from participating in some competitive quests, alliance battles, whatever. These points are used to trade for these rare items instead of golds and materials.

Ken Dei · Apr 14, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

XeNoGeArZ, shove it. Just, shove it.

You're probably right, most eBayers DON'T care, and I won't change most of their minds. But absolutely NOTHING changes if people don't speak out, and perhaps some of the eBayers will be jarred from their comfortable little mental shell if they read the post and think for a moment "Dear god, that really is awful..." and maybe just maybe they'll change their minds and stop eBaying.

Don't know the working conditions? Oh well gee, because I don't work there myself I must obviously know absolutely NOTHING about the inhumanities that greed and obsession for money cause. It must mean I know NOTHING about human nature.

Perhaps, I can't give you every little detail but I have a pretty good idea of what it's like. As for "my lone unpleasant experience." it was an example of how a normal person feels after an only slightly extended period of playing, the purpose of which was to give a standard to expand upon to give the reader and idea of how bad the effects of such a job would have on someone. Then to subsequently tie those things in with the inability to fix them, ultimately giving a pretty clear picture WHY this is not a "good" thing.

But frankly, I only explained that for the sake of people who needed help connecting the dots. You however, are a lost cause. A coward. You figure because you don't have the nerve to crawl out of your hole and say that this is wrong, that no one else should. Don't rock the boat right? Don't be confrontational or people might dislike you...better to jeer at the guy who sticks his neck out, pretend he's the bad guy. Screw you...I'll get off my soap box when I please, and no stinking coward like you will cause me to do otherwise.

Poison Ivy · Apr 14, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Save the images into your computer...it will make reading much easier.

Anyways...I'm actually deciding to make some money just by farming...even though I'm 13, I am in heavy need of money for investing. Yes. Investing.

Silent Kitty · Apr 14, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I wished I cared about the market, but allas, I don't. I play, have fun, play and have fun. You may call me spoiled, but I don't care about that whole farming stuff.
I do Glint quests all the time and it gives me a cool 600g every time. I already have more than 5K in my stash. That makes me feel rich

ophidian409 · Apr 14, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Buying game gold IS NOT pointess, buying gold for rares is about a sense of satisification. Think about it, if you drive a Porsche you gain a sense of satisification and confidence, which is completely equivalent to the case when you carry a full set of fissure armor. It is nothing wrong with spending money for satisification, just like you do in reality.

Thallandor · Apr 14, 2006, 04:48 PM // 16:48

woah talk about threadomancy, ebay gold will continue to exist unless the community do something against it as a whole (unlikely). But i dont think inking down your support of it is a very good idea :P just though i mention for those who type and post faster than they can think.

ShadowMagus · Apr 14, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

No, not everything is Black and White....but there are things in this world that are inhierantly evil...no matter what lame excuses you come up with to justify it or pretend you aren't responsible.

Although you made several good points, this is where you are rong. Nothing is inherantly evil - reason being is good and evil are intelegent concepts/choices based on ethical views - therefor NOTHING can become eather good or evil unless they make a decesion to be - and to our current knowledge, only humans have this capability.

Edit - forgot to mention that what you talked about for them playing that long being horrible conditions - also not entirly correct, as most simply monitor bots or macro's, and do minimal acual playing, simply being there to ensure the programs work, and gm's or mods for the games will get an acual responce - this information is available through the articals at the begining of this forum, as well as fairly easy to obtain from many other sources if you bother to look.

This thread should also be stopped here - I read the entire first page, including the articles, and the first few posts on the last page. Most valid points had already been covered, and im asuming the rest where covered in the 6 pages inbetween them - and I regarded most of it as a waste of my time - I will not be checking back on this thread again.

Ken Dei · Apr 15, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowMagus

Although you made several good points, this is where you are rong. Nothing is inherantly evil - reason being is good and evil are intelegent concepts/choices based on ethical views - therefor NOTHING can become eather good or evil unless they make a decesion to be - and to our current knowledge, only humans have this capability.

Edit - forgot to mention that what you talked about for them playing that long being horrible conditions - also not entirly correct, as most simply monitor bots or macro's, and do minimal acual playing, simply being there to ensure the programs work, and gm's or mods for the games will get an acual responce - this information is available through the articals at the begining of this forum, as well as fairly easy to obtain from many other sources if you bother to look.

This thread should also be stopped here - I read the entire first page, including the articles, and the first few posts on the last page. Most valid points had already been covered, and im asuming the rest where covered in the 6 pages inbetween them - and I regarded most of it as a waste of my time - I will not be checking back on this thread again.

Although ShadowMagnus states he won't check back in, I'll argue some points for the sake of arguementation.

First of all, yes there are things that are inheirantly evil, things which, the bad consequences outwieght the good by such a large margin, or when there are no good consequences. Things that most people with a decent moral center can look at and say "That's just wrong."

The second point brought up was, once again, the conditions under which the workers work. While true some may have it better then others, all the conditions are pitiful compared to what they could be, and I will guarentee there are those working under conditions as I described. I felt it best to describe a worse case situation so as to present the best mental image, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Last, in my previous posts my tone was most likely self-righteous, and belligerant. I assure you, my objective is not to be an over zealous crusader. However, I do not deny or appologize for my basic humane respect for people, especially those put in less then favorable situations. I also take great offense at people who do not attempt to even care about something that should be of at least moderate importance. It's even worse when they back up their general apathy with even poorer excuses.

Perhaps it is "unfashionable" to try and be the good guy or the defender of the weak and the purveyor of important issues. It might be "bad form" to be the guy who stands on the soap box and tells a lot of people something they might not want to hear. And yes, it might even seem "silly" or even "sappy" to make a moral stand in a game forum of all places. However, none of those things are enough of an excuse to be disuaded from doing the right thing, and don't give me the "good is relative" arguement. Trying to help people better themselves through words is a good thing.

So, when there's the opportunity to speak out against something bad, to stand on the soapbox and try and change peoples minds for the better, I will probably be there, or at least backing up the guys who got there first.

That's my bit, now hopefully the thread can go back to figuring out what to DO about the sweatshops, the gold they produce, and curbing the demand.

ghostlyranger · Apr 15, 2006, 05:29 AM // 05:29

we all should be happy because in GW, the rare items are just rare skins, not rare stats.

so the online purchasing gold doesnt really put u into a serious disadvantage situation against other ppl.

LordDeArnise · Apr 15, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Yeah, I like how the way the drops go in GW allow everyone the opportunity to have them, either by getting the drops their way or using their gold to buy them. Combined that system with Anet's will to crack down on bots and other such things, it is a good thing compared to some other MMO worlds.

I can see why publishers of MMO grinder games want to get a piece of this. But at the same time, it is this secondary market that is ruining the economy of these grinder games; that was one of many turn-offs that took me away from EQ and over here to GW. I can understand why some gamers do what they need to do, using real money and all. But at the same time, it takes so much away from those seeking to play the game legitimately, like I do. I am not one with millions of gold on hand, or have a "Fort Knox" account on a grinder game. No...I play the game the way it was meant to be.

jackie · Apr 15, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by XeNoGeArZ

Way to go to generalize Westerners. Humanity FTW! You couldn't even add one word.
"...spineless some Westerners..."
I suppose I could generalize all the people from Finland now, since you are from there, and like you to have one view of all Westerners - I suppose I can have the same view for all those from Finland? Way to go representing your native homeland!

Ehh..great flaming.

Well reading my post you should understand that I'm not generalizing Each and Everybody. I'm only speaking about the guys behind this kind of business and refering to the greed-factor and use of low-price labour.

Yeah for sure if you rip only that part of my message and make it own then it can be understand wrongly.

Don't be so rude.

Studio Ghibli · Apr 15, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackie

Making a living from farming in an Online Game, now that really says how greedy, lazy & opportunists humans are.

About that part that the opportunists pay 4x money to the Chinese than China's own average, that ain't any excuse to cover their business idea.

Sometimes I'm really ashamed how spineless westerners are.

First off,

Jackie, despite whatever way you want to spin it, your statement -is- an all-encompassing generalization that says westerners are spineless. In fact, it implies that westerners are always spineless--but, sometimes, youre just really ashamed about it.

You're not ashamed about how spineless westerners can be sometimes, or how spineless some westerners are, you're ashamed about how spineless westerners are.

If you didn't mean to say that, that's fine. Just say so. But don't spin bs about how people are reading what you said wrong. Maybe you mistyped what you meant to say.

Now, that being said, I don't know westerners are spineless for taking advantage of a market that exists. People will pay for it. People will work for it. If anything, I think it's a very ballsy venture. Kudos for the entrepeneurs.

You criticize these people for being greedy, lazy, and opportunistic--but this is exactly what the current system encourages: to do as little work as possible for as much monetary reward as possible.

As for what they pay the Chinese, shrug. He has no reason to pay them five dollars an hour or whatever. What he does pay is on par with other jobs in that particular area, and it is apparently enough to live on. While it seems small to us, figure out the cost of living before you go screaming about how awful this is.

Just so everyone knows, one American dollar translates to roughly eight yuan. From what limited poking around I've done on the internet, it seems your average restauraunt meal in China will run you about sixteen yuan.

So, let's see. Twelve-hour day. About fifty cents an hour. About six dollars a day. About 48 yuan a day. Three restauraunt meals a day.

And all for monitoring a bot.

Monitoring a bot.

He doesn't play the game. He doesn't type on the keyboard and move the mouse or whatever for twelve hours straight. He monitors it. He types in a reply when someone asks him if he's a bot.

And don't believe for an instant he's staring at that screen for twelve hours. He's probably got a book or some friends or whatever to occupy him.

That sounds awful.

"The average annual disposable income of Beijing's poorest urban residents in the first nine months of this year was 4,600 yuan (US$560), only 2 per cent higher than the figure for the same period last year, according to Yu.

In comparison, the richest group had an annual disposable income of 27,200 yuan (US$3,300), 24 per cent up from last year. Yu stressed that the municipal government has adopted measures to enhance the standard of living of low-income groups.

Farmers' annual income was 6,140 yuan (US$740), an increase of 10 per cent on last year."

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2004/Oct/109485.htm

Yes, the article is from 2004. However, I'll wager that 2006 numbers are roughly the same, if not slightly improved.

Now, WITH CONTEXT ESTABLISHED, let's see how much our poor sweatshop worker makes.

So, how much did he make in American dollars?

Fifty cents an hour.
Twelve dollars a day.
And, assuming he works every day with no holiday, two-thousand-one-hundred-and-nine dollars. That is, of course, without tax.

Christ, he's practically drowning in poverty.

To be more serious..

I don't agree with farming. It bothers me to see people who've put time and energy into a game be passed up by someone who simply has money to waste. It's a very frustrating experience, even moreso in other games where having UBEREQUIPMENT definately matters.

It's wrong. I agree with it.

.. inherenty evil though? Come on. Feel sensationalistic lately?

Ken Dei, seriously.

'Imagine doing that day in, day out, for months, years at a time...then when the bad medical complications of such extreme gameplay set in, you can't go home and take an Aspirin...or afford good medical attention. You definitely can't take a break, you'll lose your "job," so you suffer...you screw up your body, and waste your life away in a worthless, dead end job, to line the pockets of people who don't give a ---- about you, so a bunch of people on the other side of the world can be callous, soul-less, moral-less retards who say everythings "Ok" this way because instead of buying a game they could afford to spend the time on and play legitimately, they would rather cheat their way to the top."

You've just described every minimum wage job out there. It's shit work. It's dog work. It's menial, boring, repetitive. You get no respect. There's little room for advancement--unless, that is, you count shift manager as advancement. And who's making the real money? Some guy in a huge-ass building thousands of miles away.

Callous? Soulless? Moralless? Please cite for me the chapter in the Good Book where God says "Thou shalt not buy online videogame equipment for money, nor shalt thou sell it. Woe be to the seller, for his soul suffer my wrath. Blessed art the legitiment game players, for theirs is the kingdom of Ascalon."

And he's not even playing the game! He's monitoring it! Which means he can be doing anything he wants for those twelve hours, as long as he's smart enough to look back every once and awhile to make sure he's not being checked!

Seriously.

I mean, I'm not saying I condone the behavior. But, come on.

If someone wants to waste his hard-earned money buying shit, then more power to him. I won't like him. I won't approve of it. But I doubt he's going to be cast into hell.

As for something being inherently evil, no.

Remove humanity from the equation and nothing is evil. Why? Because -we- assign morality to things. Evil is a question of morality. Morality is a human convention. Morality changes from culture to culture. Morality is not static. Morality changes.

Hence, nothing is inherently evil.

To summarize, 'cause it's a long post:

The Chinese Sweatshop situaton isn't that bad. The guy makes decent money. The room he's doing it in is probably somewhat comfortable, as it's probably located in a public cafe or whatever. If not that, he's playing it in his house--which means he has a house -and- a computer. He's better off than most Americans right there. And if it's that airplane hanger, so what? I'm still willing to wager it has some amenities to it, if only because the computers need to keep cool to run.

The article is SENSATIONALISTIC.

People who buy/sell stuff online suck. While they aren't going to Hell, let's hope some punishment will be meted out on them, either in this world or the next.

- edit -

http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_40/b3701119.htm

That sweatshop is an actual sweatshop. Thank your local Wal-Mart.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/te...pagewanted=all

Here's a less sensationalistic article. Notice how it lacks the cool and sick wordage of the OP article. Notice, also, the lack of a guy with a whip.

It looks pretty comfortable. Beats standing in front of a fryer, if you ask me...

.. and apparently the Chinese guy agrees. Fuijan province, too, the same as our MYSTERIOUS SACK.

"If they didn't work here they'd probably be working as waiters in hot pot restaurants," he said, "or go back to help their parents farm the land - or more likely, hang out on the streets with no job at all."

Here in coastal Fujian Province, several gold farm operators offered access to their underground facilities recently, on the condition that their names not be disclosed because the legal and tax status of some of the operations is in question.

One huge site here in Fuzhou has over 100 computers in a series of large, dark rooms. About 70 players could be seen playing quietly one weekday afternoon, while some players slept by the keyboard.

"We recruit through newspaper ads," said the 30-something owner, whose workers range from 18 to 25 years old. "They all know how to play online games, but they're not willing to do hard labor."

Another operation here has about 40 computers lined up in the basement of an old dilapidated building, all playing the same game. Upstairs were unkempt, closet-size dormitory rooms where several gamers slept on bunk beds; the floors were strewn with hot pots.

Beeline · Apr 15, 2006, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Its a shame such a large percentage of online gamers are the type that likes to win rather than to play.
They have spawned uncountable cheat sites, walkthroughs, hack/exploit specialists, bot programs(i think if MMORPG's didnt put a scripting system in thier games this would be so much harder to code bots - it almost seems by putting in scripting engines the games creaters know they will sell more because of the huge market of cheaters/abusers), and over the last few years an alarming increase of game currency for real currency farming.
After reading the article and seeing the profits they can make err unbelievable, just no other words for it.

Its unbelievable people have made this kind of thing thier living, and exploited poor countries who are willing to do anything for regular work/money, that they boast about thier skills when in fact thier only real skill is in common criminal greed.
Its equally unbelievable that so many "players" , and i use the term lightly, are willing to pay all this real money for a false ego boost - they have no skill, no dedication(if they dont have time to spend hours they dont deserve the rewards that the time would bring.) These are the kind of people who use a walkthrough the first time they play a game, they buy thier in game currency so they can have everything they desire instead of earning it. They are the ones who will show off thier stuff - "hey look at me you noobs, i got icy sword" and yet in a fight he is useless as hes only been on the game for 20 hours.
The sad repercussions of this type of game demigod is that a majority of new online gamers see this as the norm now, and so everyone wants everything without any effort. There is a split in the players in GW, a small number of genuine players who havent bought currency, havent been run anywhere etc and a massive number of players who will buy with real money, run everything, bug a guild team into RA, bring IW and Droks armour to Ascalon lvl 10 arena etc... how very sad i would prefer NPC's to most players in GW. They would have more character, swear less, and i would never worry "did he just use a bug or hack to cheat me??"
So sadly now online games cannot give any real fair player a good representation of thier own skill, ladders are worthless because i am now rated against cheaters, dupers, people who bought thier power...

Ive said before anyone who pays real money for in game resources is the same kind of person who needs viagra - you cant perform naturally.

And i'm afraid the fair players are the smaller percentage, because like me they dont play MMORPG's for long. I wonder what the split might be like in ten years time when the larger percentage of online players are over 20 years old?